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	<title>Comments on: Trying to Define Web Accessibility</title>
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	<description>Tips and Commentary on Web Accessibility, Usability, and Search Marketing best practices.</description>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson Accessible Web Design &#124; Accessibility Podcast at WebAxe</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-10653</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson Accessible Web Design &#124; Accessibility Podcast at WebAxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2007 22:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/#comment-10653</guid>
		<description>[...] Dennis and Russ aim to cover a wide variety of subjects in the basic of web accessibility. Their last podcast discussed the accessibility of CAPTCHAs - and the next podcast up, for whatever reason, discusses me. Well, not precisely. More specifically, it features an interview with me on the subject of the definition of accessibility - a topic which I&#8217;ve written on before. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Dennis and Russ aim to cover a wide variety of subjects in the basic of web accessibility. Their last podcast discussed the accessibility of CAPTCHAs - and the next podcast up, for whatever reason, discusses me. Well, not precisely. More specifically, it features an interview with me on the subject of the definition of accessibility - a topic which I&#8217;ve written on before.&nbsp;[&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: 5 Basic Steps Towards Website Accessibility</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-6080</link>
		<dc:creator>5 Basic Steps Towards Website Accessibility</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jan 2007 05:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/#comment-6080</guid>
		<description>[...] This isn&#8217;t going to give you that wonderful, relaxing reading room I talked about up above. But a lot of these things can be easily incorporated directly into your existing design - you don&#8217;t necessarily need to start over or rebuild completely in order to create a better experience for your users. Moving forward one step at a time will still make the web a better place.    Add to Technorati favorites [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] This isn&#8217;t going to give you that wonderful, relaxing reading room I talked about up above. But a lot of these things can be easily incorporated directly into your existing design - you don&#8217;t necessarily need to start over or rebuild completely in order to create a better experience for your users. Moving forward one step at a time will still make the web a better place.    Add to Technorati favorites&nbsp;[&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-924</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/#comment-924</guid>
		<description>Thanks a lot for your comments, Mike - it&#039;s interesting how much quieter conversation on these issues has been recently.  Partially, at least, I think it&#039;s because of cases such as the rather infamous Jeff Croft post: that post spawned such vitriol on every sides that many people may now be treading very cautiously. 

People are passionate about the issue.  I think that&#039;s great. It makes for a much richer discussion.  However, when passions run high, sometimes tempers flare. Acknowledging the limitations of understanding accessibility is crucial to keeping an even keel, for me.

For me, the biggest acknowledgement to make in accessibility is that you (speaking abstractly) just never know everything: who is (or will be) accessing your site, with what tools, with what goals - so it&#039;s inevitably a Sisyphean battle.  We will never get to the top: all we can do is try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks a lot for your comments, Mike - it&#8217;s interesting how much quieter conversation on these issues has been recently.  Partially, at least, I think it&#8217;s because of cases such as the rather infamous Jeff Croft post: that post spawned such vitriol on every sides that many people may now be treading very&nbsp;cautiously. </p>
<p>People are passionate about the issue.  I think that&#8217;s great. It makes for a much richer discussion.  However, when passions run high, sometimes tempers flare. Acknowledging the limitations of understanding accessibility is crucial to keeping an even keel, for&nbsp;me.</p>
<p>For me, the biggest acknowledgement to make in accessibility is that you (speaking abstractly) just never know everything: who is (or will be) accessing your site, with what tools, with what goals - so it&#8217;s inevitably a Sisyphean battle.  We will never get to the top: all we can do is&nbsp;try.</p>
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		<title>By: Isofarro</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-920</link>
		<dc:creator>Isofarro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/#comment-920</guid>
		<description>Joe, good post - its great to see some thought, and some research of evidence, offered into the discussion.


John, interesting and insightful response, and a couple of comments in reply:

* Some people won&#039;t consider themselves disabled, even if they have vision, dexterity or hearing difficulties - yet a disability it still is, regardless. Its a reduced or lack of a sensory perception or skill. We deal with vision impairments regardles of whether someone is legally certified as being vision impaired or not. The legality or acknowledgement of a disability is irrelevant. Its the act of not discriminating against someone on the basis of their disability - whether they acknowledge that disability is not important, and does not change the approach.

* Regarding the battle against &quot;adding accessibility almost always has a trade off of some kind&quot; - it sounds like you are saying there&#039;s no trade off in making content accessible? Am I reading that right?

* I understand, and agree with your point on relying on enhancements being a barrier. Although I point out Flash isn&#039;t always an enhancement. When it is used to enhance content - fine, then there should be a fallback. When it is used as a means of making content accessible, then no fallback is necessary - unless your audience is of people with disabilities that cannot, because of their disability, access the content, or use the technologies needed to access the content.

* &quot;the same blog article where I was called a troll&quot; - that was deserved (and I don&#039;t mean that as an insult - just a fair reflection of that particular thread). I was surprised it was you that got snagged on that hook.

* In Jeff Croft&#039;s case - accessibility wasn&#039;t just an additional feature. He&#039;d already catered for accessibility up to a certain level. What he pushed back on was the overly crude reaction he got from accessibility people when he rejected the idea of implementing a reverse-colours option. He made a reasonable decision based on time, cost and benefit, and opted not to do it. (And his grounds for doing so were sound - why replicate something in an inferior way on one website when it can and should be done in the browser in a way that can be used on all websites? - its the same rationale as the font-resizer widgets and print buttons that clutter up many pages)

I also note with great interest that the real problem zealots and &quot;experts&quot; have been remarkably quiet and well behaved in the last two weeks. Perhaps that&#039;s a good sign.


Mike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, good post - its great to see some thought, and some research of evidence, offered into the&nbsp;discussion.</p>
<p>John, interesting and insightful response, and a couple of comments in&nbsp;reply:</p>
<p>* Some people won&#8217;t consider themselves disabled, even if they have vision, dexterity or hearing difficulties - yet a disability it still is, regardless. Its a reduced or lack of a sensory perception or skill. We deal with vision impairments regardles of whether someone is legally certified as being vision impaired or not. The legality or acknowledgement of a disability is irrelevant. Its the act of not discriminating against someone on the basis of their disability - whether they acknowledge that disability is not important, and does not change the&nbsp;approach.</p>
<p>* Regarding the battle against &#8220;adding accessibility almost always has a trade off of some kind&#8221; - it sounds like you are saying there&#8217;s no trade off in making content accessible? Am I reading that&nbsp;right?</p>
<p>* I understand, and agree with your point on relying on enhancements being a barrier. Although I point out Flash isn&#8217;t always an enhancement. When it is used to enhance content - fine, then there should be a fallback. When it is used as a means of making content accessible, then no fallback is necessary - unless your audience is of people with disabilities that cannot, because of their disability, access the content, or use the technologies needed to access the&nbsp;content.</p>
<p>* &#8220;the same blog article where I was called a troll&#8221; - that was deserved (and I don&#8217;t mean that as an insult - just a fair reflection of that particular thread). I was surprised it was you that got snagged on that&nbsp;hook.</p>
<p>* In Jeff Croft&#8217;s case - accessibility wasn&#8217;t just an additional feature. He&#8217;d already catered for accessibility up to a certain level. What he pushed back on was the overly crude reaction he got from accessibility people when he rejected the idea of implementing a reverse-colours option. He made a reasonable decision based on time, cost and benefit, and opted not to do it. (And his grounds for doing so were sound - why replicate something in an inferior way on one website when it can and should be done in the browser in a way that can be used on all websites? - its the same rationale as the font-resizer widgets and print buttons that clutter up many&nbsp;pages)</p>
<p>I also note with great interest that the real problem zealots and &#8220;experts&#8221; have been remarkably quiet and well behaved in the last two weeks. Perhaps that&#8217;s a good&nbsp;sign.</p>
<p>Mike.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-901</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/#comment-901</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your extensive comments, John!  I certainly agree with you - &quot;accessibility&quot; is first about &quot;access&quot;.  I do feel, however, that there&#039;s a progression to developing an accessible site: first preparing for those users who have no choice but to use a device with limited access capabilities, and second to prepare for those who have other options, but have chosen to access your site on, for example, their Palm pilot.

But graceful degradation is an utterly critical portion of web accessibility, regardless of any difference in terminology: having a &quot;Plan B&quot;, like you mention, is too important to be left behind. I hadn&#039;t seen Robert Nyman&#039;s article: that was very interesting!  Yet another reason to be cautious when using client-side scripting! 

Thanks for your comments!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your extensive comments, John!  I certainly agree with you - &#8220;accessibility&#8221; is first about &#8220;access&#8221;.  I do feel, however, that there&#8217;s a progression to developing an accessible site: first preparing for those users who have no choice but to use a device with limited access capabilities, and second to prepare for those who have other options, but have chosen to access your site on, for example, their Palm&nbsp;pilot.</p>
<p>But graceful degradation is an utterly critical portion of web accessibility, regardless of any difference in terminology: having a &#8220;Plan B&#8221;, like you mention, is too important to be left behind. I hadn&#8217;t seen Robert Nyman&#8217;s article: that was very interesting!  Yet another reason to be cautious when using client-side&nbsp;scripting! </p>
<p>Thanks for your&nbsp;comments!</p>
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		<title>By: John Foliot</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-897</link>
		<dc:creator>John Foliot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 05:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/#comment-897</guid>
		<description>As one of those who has been accused of being both a &quot;zealot&quot; and a pedant (and even a troll) over the years, I am confused by this &quot;division&quot; between Universal and Accessible.  To me, they *should* be the same thing.  Here&#039;s my position:

When it comes to online accessibility, it is important to remember that is not just about &quot;disabled&quot; users, it&#039;s about all users - &quot;disabled&quot; is a label that many people do not want or feel applies to them. However, a study by Microsoft in 2004 showed that among adult computer users in the United States:

    * 1 in 4 has a vision difficulty
    * 1 in 4 has a dexterity difficulty
    * 1 in 5 has a hearing difficulty

The Microsoft Survey also found that 16% of users have a cognitive difficulty or impairment, and few (3%) have a speech difficulty or impairment.

Today&#039;s multitude of web-enabled devices relies on online content that has been optimized, not for a specific browser, but rather for Universal Accessibility.  As developers, we have many tools at our disposal today, many more than we had even 5 years ago.  But as a &quot;web accessibility advocate&quot;, the real problem is that the notion of graceful degradation apparently has gone missing.  Flash and AJAX (to name just two of the &quot;hot spot&quot; debating points) *can* aid in the goal of improved access and improved user experience for some users.  But too often what I see is an all or nothing approach - positions are polarized and many developers refuse to accept that there must be a &quot;Plan B&quot;. 

&quot;Plan B&quot; acknowledges that there are a myriad of possible approaches to our web content, and we need to be cognizant of these differences and be prepared to deal with them.  The foundation of all web based, human consumable content (and even interaction) is the exchange of ideas or knowledge, and so at its base, that knowledge exchange *should* (nay, *must*) stand on its own.  We can layer on enhancements and designs which may improve some user&#039;s ability to deal with this exchange, and this is a positive thing - it improves accessibility.  If these enhancements improve the user experience then I&#039;m all for it.  But when you sacrifice the access to the basic exchange by relying on these layers of enhancement,  then you are creating inaccessible content - and it is here that I become a zealot.  Use the enhancements, but always be sure that there is a Plan B - what happens when your enhancement is not accessible (to any user, for any reason)?

Recently I was researching information on AJAX for my new position, and one of my favorite &quot;warnings&quot; on AJAX was from Robert Nyman, who wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
...After some digging, we found out that the JavaScript file was &lt;em&gt;completely blank&lt;/em&gt;! The reason for this, apparently, is that the proxy server they had to go through to access [the] internet totally cleansed any JavaScript file that contained this text:
&lt;code&gt;new ActiveXObject&lt;/code&gt;
So much for object detection and every other approach we recommend to web developers. Not a single line of code was left behind in the file. And the problem is that it won&#039;t throw an error or show the content of a noscript tag either; everything just stops working.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.robertnyman.com/2006/04/25/an-important-lesson-learned-about-ajax-and-accessibility/&quot;&gt;www.robertnyman.com/2006/04/25/an-important-lesson-learned-about-ajax-and-accessibility/&lt;/a&gt; 

(Note that he used the word &quot;access&quot; when connecting to his web application…)

Finally, the bigger battle is (should be?) against those &quot;zealots&quot; who are starting to think aloud &quot;Has accessibility been taken too far?&quot; and &quot;…adding accessibility almost always has a trade off of some kind.&quot;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www2.jeffcroft.com/2006/aug/21/has-accessibility-been-taken-too-far/&quot;&gt;
www2.jeffcroft.com/2006/aug/21/has-accessibility-been-taken-too-far/
&lt;/a&gt; - the same blog article where I was called a troll).  Continuing to think of accessibility as an enhancement or add-on misses the point entirely, and here both &quot;Camps&quot; still have much work ahead of us.

JF</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one of those who has been accused of being both a &#8220;zealot&#8221; and a pedant (and even a troll) over the years, I am confused by this &#8220;division&#8221; between Universal and Accessible.  To me, they *should* be the same thing.  Here&#8217;s my&nbsp;position:</p>
<p>When it comes to online accessibility, it is important to remember that is not just about &#8220;disabled&#8221; users, it&#8217;s about all users - &#8220;disabled&#8221; is a label that many people do not want or feel applies to them. However, a study by Microsoft in 2004 showed that among adult computer users in the United&nbsp;States:</p>
<p>    * 1 in 4 has a vision difficulty<br />
    * 1 in 4 has a dexterity difficulty<br />
    * 1 in 5 has a hearing&nbsp;difficulty</p>
<p>The Microsoft Survey also found that 16% of users have a cognitive difficulty or impairment, and few (3%) have a speech difficulty or&nbsp;impairment.</p>
<p>Today&#8217;s multitude of web-enabled devices relies on online content that has been optimized, not for a specific browser, but rather for Universal Accessibility.  As developers, we have many tools at our disposal today, many more than we had even 5 years ago.  But as a &#8220;web accessibility advocate&#8221;, the real problem is that the notion of graceful degradation apparently has gone missing.  Flash and AJAX (to name just two of the &#8220;hot spot&#8221; debating points) *can* aid in the goal of improved access and improved user experience for some users.  But too often what I see is an all or nothing approach - positions are polarized and many developers refuse to accept that there must be a &#8220;Plan&nbsp;B&#8221;. </p>
<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>Plan B&#8221; acknowledges that there are a myriad of possible approaches to our web content, and we need to be cognizant of these differences and be prepared to deal with them.  The foundation of all web based, human consumable content (and even interaction) is the exchange of ideas or knowledge, and so at its base, that knowledge exchange *should* (nay, *must*) stand on its own.  We can layer on enhancements and designs which may improve some user&#8217;s ability to deal with this exchange, and this is a positive thing - it improves accessibility.  If these enhancements improve the user experience then I&#8217;m all for it.  But when you sacrifice the access to the basic exchange by relying on these layers of enhancement,  then you are creating inaccessible content - and it is here that I become a zealot.  Use the enhancements, but always be sure that there is a Plan B - what happens when your enhancement is not accessible (to any user, for any&nbsp;reason)?</p>
<p>Recently I was researching information on AJAX for my new position, and one of my favorite &#8220;warnings&#8221; on AJAX was from Robert Nyman, who&nbsp;wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8230;After some digging, we found out that the JavaScript file was <em>completely blank</em>! The reason for this, apparently, is that the proxy server they had to go through to access [the] internet totally cleansed any JavaScript file that contained this text:<br />
<code>new ActiveXObject</code><br />
So much for object detection and every other approach we recommend to web developers. Not a single line of code was left behind in the file. And the problem is that it won&#8217;t throw an error or show the content of a noscript tag either; everything just stops&nbsp;working.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.robertnyman.com/2006/04/25/an-important-lesson-learned-about-ajax-and-accessibility/">http://www.robertnyman.com/2006/04/25/an-important-lesson-learned-about-ajax-and-accessibility/</a> </p>
<p>(Note that he used the word &#8220;access&#8221; when connecting to his web&nbsp;application…)</p>
<p>Finally, the bigger battle is (should be?) against those &#8220;zealots&#8221; who are starting to think aloud &#8220;Has accessibility been taken too far?&#8221; and &#8220;…adding accessibility almost always has a trade off of some kind.&#8221;  (<a href="http://www2.jeffcroft.com/2006/aug/21/has-accessibility-been-taken-too-far/"><br />
www2.jeffcroft.com/2006/aug/21/has-accessibility-been-taken-too-far/<br />
</a> - the same blog article where I was called a troll).  Continuing to think of accessibility as an enhancement or add-on misses the point entirely, and here both &#8220;Camps&#8221; still have much work ahead of&nbsp;us.</p>
<p>JF</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Cherim</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-893</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Cherim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 23:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/trying-to-define-web-accessibility/#comment-893</guid>
		<description>Great article Joe. As you know, I&#039;m a Camp 1 subscriber, but my first definition of an &quot;accessible&quot; site is that it meets the needs of disabled users -- that&#039;s rule one. If it fails that the rest doesn&#039;t matter; I&#039;ve failed. This may surprise some people, but I did note that in the article I wrote with Gez that making a site for disabled users is all part of it. I just choose to kick it up a notch in terms of how I define the word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article Joe. As you know, I&#8217;m a Camp 1 subscriber, but my first definition of an &#8220;accessible&#8221; site is that it meets the needs of disabled users&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;that&#8217;s rule one. If it fails that the rest doesn&#8217;t matter; I&#8217;ve failed. This may surprise some people, but I did note that in the article I wrote with Gez that making a site for disabled users is all part of it. I just choose to kick it up a notch in terms of how I define the&nbsp;word.</p>
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