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	<title>Comments on: Care about standards? No, not exactly&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/</link>
	<description>Tips and Commentary on Web Accessibility, Usability, and Search Marketing best practices.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jermayn Parker</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-21185</link>
		<dc:creator>Jermayn Parker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-21185</guid>
		<description>I have posted about this cake metaphor over on my blog which will be up tom (AU perth time).

http://germworks.net/blog/2007/09/18/how-to-make-the-perfect-web-cake/

comments etc most welcome</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have posted about this cake metaphor over on my blog which will be up tom (AU perth time).</p>
<p><a href="http://germworks.net/blog/2007/09/18/how-to-make-the-perfect-web-cake/">http://germworks.net/blog/2007/09/18/how-to-make-the-perfect-web-cake/</a></p>
<p>comments etc most&nbsp;welcome</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20702</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20702</guid>
		<description>But the basics are only a small part of a cake, ultimately. There's a vast difference between a sponge cake and a flourless torte (arguably, a flourless torte is &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; a cake, of course.)

Do note, though, that I'm only arguing against a quasi-religious dedication to web standards without any consideration for other fundamental development needs: the kind of site which might provide a rigidly standards-based development by using deeply nested absolutely positioned &lt;code&gt;div&lt;/code&gt; tags, &lt;code&gt;br&lt;/code&gt; elements for positioning, and a complete lack of semantic elements.

It's important to note that &lt;em&gt;web standards&lt;/em&gt; are ultimately only a tiny part of what makes a website functionally exceptional.

Basically, if there is a sound and testable justification for not violating web standards which provides benefit to the user, it is an appropriate activity. Otherwise, no --- it's not acceptable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the basics are only a small part of a cake, ultimately. There&#8217;s a vast difference between a sponge cake and a flourless torte (arguably, a flourless torte is <em>not</em> a cake, of course.)</p>
<p>Do note, though, that I&#8217;m only arguing against a quasi-religious dedication to web standards without any consideration for other fundamental development needs: the kind of site which might provide a rigidly standards-based development by using deeply nested absolutely positioned <code>div</code> tags, <code>br</code> elements for positioning, and a complete lack of semantic elements.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s important to note that <em>web standards</em> are ultimately only a tiny part of what makes a website functionally exceptional.</p>
<p>Basically, if there is a sound and testable justification for not violating web standards which provides benefit to the user, it is an appropriate activity. Otherwise, no&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- it&#8217;s not&nbsp;acceptable.</p>
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		<title>By: Jermayn Parker</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20673</link>
		<dc:creator>Jermayn Parker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 03:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20673</guid>
		<description>ha ha ha
I am sure many people will not be surprised that I will be remembered on the web for my love of food :lol: 

Seriously if the cake metaphor helps people understand the different areas of the web that is the main thing. What we need to do now is figer which cake ingredients are the web ingredients...

&lt;blockquote&gt;there will alway be the basic ingredients when it come to creating a cake and they cannot vary too much else the thing will end up being something other than a cake.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Agree totally and I think most people do</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ha ha ha<br />
I am sure many people will not be surprised that I will be remembered on the web for my love of food <img src='http://www.joedolson.com/articles/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Seriously if the cake metaphor helps people understand the different areas of the web that is the main thing. What we need to do now is figer which cake ingredients are the web ingredients&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>there will alway be the basic ingredients when it come to creating a cake and they cannot vary too much else the thing will end up being something other than a cake.</p></blockquote>
<p>Agree totally and I think most people&nbsp;do</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Cherim</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20659</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Cherim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20659</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite="#comment-20441"&gt;
I don't think there is a perfect cake recipe (either metaphorically or actually) --- instead, there are great varieties in the tastes and needs of those who will be consuming the cake.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree about the varieties, but the basics &lt;em&gt;must&lt;/em&gt; remain basically the same, regardless of tastes, consumer needs, or recipe add-ons. To again use the well-known Jermayn Parker cake metaphor (&#169; 2007, J. Parker), there will alway be the basic ingredients when it come to creating a cake and they cannot vary too much else the thing will end up being something other than a cake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="#comment-20441"><p>
I don&#8217;t think there is a perfect cake recipe (either metaphorically or actually)&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- instead, there are great varieties in the tastes and needs of those who will be consuming the cake.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree about the varieties, but the basics <em>must</em> remain basically the same, regardless of tastes, consumer needs, or recipe add-ons. To again use the well-known Jermayn Parker cake metaphor (&copy; 2007, J. Parker), there will alway be the basic ingredients when it come to creating a cake and they cannot vary too much else the thing will end up being something other than a&nbsp;cake.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20654</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20654</guid>
		<description>Heh. ;) 

Authorship, as it happens, is all that is legally required in order to claim copyright. Registration of copyright is only helpful in terms of being able to defend your copyright more easily in cases of legal infringement. The biggest challenge with unregistered copyright is in proving your original work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh. <img src='http://www.joedolson.com/articles/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Authorship, as it happens, is all that is legally required in order to claim copyright. Registration of copyright is only helpful in terms of being able to defend your copyright more easily in cases of legal infringement. The biggest challenge with unregistered copyright is in proving your original&nbsp;work!</p>
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		<title>By: Jermayn Parker</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20626</link>
		<dc:creator>Jermayn Parker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20626</guid>
		<description>Maybe I should copyright the cake metaphor :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I should copyright the cake metaphor&nbsp;:)</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20441</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20441</guid>
		<description>No question that web standards are a necessity: but when it comes to passion, I think that the end product should trump the means. It's critically important to be aware of web standards; to be intimately familiar with them; and, crucially, to be cognizant of their current limitations. 

I definitely agree that if what you do is &lt;em&gt;swap&lt;/em&gt; the salt and sugar, you're going to end up with a lousy cake. But adding an extra pinch of salt might solve a problem.

I don't think there is a perfect cake recipe (either metaphorically or actually) --- instead, there are great varieties in the tastes and needs of those who will be consuming the cake. You need to create a cake which is best for your consumers, not an abstractly idealized pastry.

I'm enjoying this metaphor, by the way. Getting to use the phrase "abstractly idealized pastry" isn't an every day occasion. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No question that web standards are a necessity: but when it comes to passion, I think that the end product should trump the means. It&#8217;s critically important to be aware of web standards; to be intimately familiar with them; and, crucially, to be cognizant of their current limitations. </p>
<p>I definitely agree that if what you do is <em>swap</em> the salt and sugar, you&#8217;re going to end up with a lousy cake. But adding an extra pinch of salt might solve a problem.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there is a perfect cake recipe (either metaphorically or actually)&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- instead, there are great varieties in the tastes and needs of those who will be consuming the cake. You need to create a cake which is best for your consumers, not an abstractly idealized pastry.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m enjoying this metaphor, by the way. Getting to use the phrase &#8220;abstractly idealized pastry&#8221; isn&#8217;t an every day occasion.&nbsp;;)</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Cherim</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20433</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Cherim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20433</guid>
		<description>In my opinion, web standards are absolutely necessary to the stable future of the internet. Without standards every developer and every browser maker does his or her own thing. That does not for a good internet make. I can't think of any industry --- manufacturing, IT, you name it --- that has been around for awhile and has a solid future without the development and adherence to their own industry's standards. If everyone follows standards, we'll (the internet industry) all be on the same page and moving forward; innovation, and compatibility will be simplified and assured. Without standards it'll be like the Wild West. It's like that now, but the industry should mature if given enough time. Without standards it'll stay like the Wild West and its future will be dubious and challenging --- more so than it needs to be or should be.

The cake metaphor is a good one. The cake standards (the recipe, the protocol) are a pinch of salt to bring out flavor (yes, that's what the salt is for in a cake), and cup of sugar to make it sweet. Without the standard we may swap those two (and probably provide a damn good argument for doing so). But, really, swap the two and what do you get? A cake that looks good but tastes like shit. I think we should all work on writing the cake recipe, enhancing the cake recipe, then sticking to it once perfected; one and all.

Regarding too much accessibility. I agree there is such a thing and I'd like to offer this article on the subject: &lt;a href="http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=182"&gt;Avoiding Extreme Accessibility&lt;/a&gt;. 

Nice article, Joe. Very thought provoking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion, web standards are absolutely necessary to the stable future of the internet. Without standards every developer and every browser maker does his or her own thing. That does not for a good internet make. I can&#8217;t think of any industry&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- manufacturing, IT, you name it&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- that has been around for awhile and has a solid future without the development and adherence to their own industry&#8217;s standards. If everyone follows standards, we&#8217;ll (the internet industry) all be on the same page and moving forward; innovation, and compatibility will be simplified and assured. Without standards it&#8217;ll be like the Wild West. It&#8217;s like that now, but the industry should mature if given enough time. Without standards it&#8217;ll stay like the Wild West and its future will be dubious and challenging&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- more so than it needs to be or should be.</p>
<p>The cake metaphor is a good one. The cake standards (the recipe, the protocol) are a pinch of salt to bring out flavor (yes, that&#8217;s what the salt is for in a cake), and cup of sugar to make it sweet. Without the standard we may swap those two (and probably provide a damn good argument for doing so). But, really, swap the two and what do you get? A cake that looks good but tastes like shit. I think we should all work on writing the cake recipe, enhancing the cake recipe, then sticking to it once perfected; one and all.</p>
<p>Regarding too much accessibility. I agree there is such a thing and I&#8217;d like to offer this article on the subject: <a href="http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=182">Avoiding Extreme Accessibility</a>. </p>
<p>Nice article, Joe. Very thought&nbsp;provoking.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20398</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20398</guid>
		<description>That may be true when it comes to revising a website in order to create accessibility; I'd say that when it comes to maintaining an existing level of accessibility for a new site or developing an accessible web site, that 5% is well worth while. 

I can see what you're saying, of course: you need to spend time making certain that your web site is a quality resource, or all the accessibility in the world just means you're making sure people can access out of date information. Not so valuable, on the whole, compared with keeping the information up to date.

There's a point where you have to compromise; but 5% is too high a price for me to pay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That may be true when it comes to revising a website in order to create accessibility; I&#8217;d say that when it comes to maintaining an existing level of accessibility for a new site or developing an accessible web site, that 5% is well worth while. </p>
<p>I can see what you&#8217;re saying, of course: you need to spend time making certain that your web site is a quality resource, or all the accessibility in the world just means you&#8217;re making sure people can access out of date information. Not so valuable, on the whole, compared with keeping the information up to date.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a point where you have to compromise; but 5% is too high a price for me to&nbsp;pay.</p>
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		<title>By: Stevie D</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20397</link>
		<dc:creator>Stevie D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/08/care-about-standards/#comment-20397</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;what’s “too much accessibility”, after all?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Given that a cake recipe is about &lt;em&gt;proportions&lt;/em&gt;, I'd say it means spending too much time looking at accessibility issues, and not enough time writing good quality content or designing an aesthetically attractive and intuitively interface.

That's the problem I have with one of my websites - yes, I could improve the accessibility of it further, which would help maybe 5% of the site's users at the absolute most - but in doing so, something else would have to give, which would probably mean the content would go out of date more, which would hinder a much higher proportion of users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>what’s “too much accessibility”, after all?</p></blockquote>
<p>Given that a cake recipe is about <em>proportions</em>, I&#8217;d say it means spending too much time looking at accessibility issues, and not enough time writing good quality content or designing an aesthetically attractive and intuitively interface.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the problem I have with one of my websites - yes, I could improve the accessibility of it further, which would help maybe 5% of the site&#8217;s users at the absolute most - but in doing so, something else would have to give, which would probably mean the content would go out of date more, which would hinder a much higher proportion of&nbsp;users.</p>
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