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	<title>Comments on: Working with legacy websites</title>
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	<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/</link>
	<description>Tips and Commentary on Accessibility (and not always on topic.)</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-24044</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-24044</guid>
		<description>Yeah, conveying that information to the client can be one of the biggest challenges.

The challenges created by websites like MySpace (I don't know Piczo) are very different -- the impression created can be a complication. I haven't encountered it myself, really, but I can imagine that clients who are experienced with things like MySpace or other "design your own" services may have a serious misconception about the challenges and tasks in best practice web design. 

Largely because they have no sense of 'best practice,' perhaps...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, conveying that information to the client can be one of the biggest challenges.</p>
<p>The challenges created by websites like MySpace (I don&#8217;t know Piczo) are very different&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;the impression created can be a complication. I haven&#8217;t encountered it myself, really, but I can imagine that clients who are experienced with things like MySpace or other &#8220;design your own&#8221; services may have a serious misconception about the challenges and tasks in best practice web design. </p>
<p>Largely because they have no sense of &#8216;best practice,&#8217;&nbsp;perhaps&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Metcalfe</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-24043</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Metcalfe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-24043</guid>
		<description>Its even harder to redesign a mess as it could be put, if the customer cannot understand what is wrong. 

"Well it looks ok in my web browser." 

I think it raises more challenges these days with website like Myspace and Piczo, because to the average person it makes building websites look as easy as move this, do that, put that here done! 

If only it was that simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its even harder to redesign a mess as it could be put, if the customer cannot understand what is wrong. </p>
<p>&#8220;Well it looks ok in my web browser.&#8221; </p>
<p>I think it raises more challenges these days with website like Myspace and Piczo, because to the average person it makes building websites look as easy as move this, do that, put that here done! </p>
<p>If only it was that&nbsp;simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21250</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21250</guid>
		<description>Making something from nothing is definitely the best job, but actually I find the process of &lt;em&gt;fixing&lt;/em&gt; websites to be pretty satisfying. I'd be stretching it if I claimed I found it fun, but I really do like being able to remove one more badly developed site from the world.

For me, turning down a job is something I'm more likely to do because of the client than because of the site. However frustrating the work itself could be, if I've got buy-in from the client and a good working relationship the process will be just fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Making something from nothing is definitely the best job, but actually I find the process of <em>fixing</em> websites to be pretty satisfying. I&#8217;d be stretching it if I claimed I found it fun, but I really do like being able to remove one more badly developed site from the world.</p>
<p>For me, turning down a job is something I&#8217;m more likely to do because of the client than because of the site. However frustrating the work itself could be, if I&#8217;ve got buy-in from the client and a good working relationship the process will be just&nbsp;fine.</p>
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		<title>By: David Zemens</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21247</link>
		<dc:creator>David Zemens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21247</guid>
		<description>I agree with you, Mike.  It my little corner of the world I would turn down a frustrating project, too.  In fact, I have turned a couple of them down by effectively pricing myself out of the competition.  I know that I am very fortunate because I don't pay the bills with my website design work, and I am pretty sure you don't, either.  With that freedom it's easier to just move on to another project that &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; fun!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you, Mike.  It my little corner of the world I would turn down a frustrating project, too.  In fact, I have turned a couple of them down by effectively pricing myself out of the competition.  I know that I am very fortunate because I don&#8217;t pay the bills with my website design work, and I am pretty sure you don&#8217;t, either.  With that freedom it&#8217;s easier to just move on to another project that <em>is</em>&nbsp;fun!</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Cherim</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21228</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Cherim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 04:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21228</guid>
		<description>I think that unless the job was going to be fun I'd just have to turn down the work. There are enough fun jobs out there without having to mess around with some tables laden behemoth or some other frustrating steaming heap of a site. If, however, the project site wasn't built with tables, or had stuff like font-tags, and was just a plain old HTML site that needed refining and CSS styling, I'd probably go for that in a minute. 

To me personally a big part of this trade is the pleasure of making something from nothing happen on screen, the power of CSS, the magic of PHP. But this is me, and my situation differs from that of most web developers. So, "Jobs from Hell" I can do without.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that unless the job was going to be fun I&#8217;d just have to turn down the work. There are enough fun jobs out there without having to mess around with some tables laden behemoth or some other frustrating steaming heap of a site. If, however, the project site wasn&#8217;t built with tables, or had stuff like font-tags, and was just a plain old <acronym title="HyperText Markup Language">HTML</acronym> site that needed refining and <acronym title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym> styling, I&#8217;d probably go for that in a minute. </p>
<p>To me personally a big part of this trade is the pleasure of making something from nothing happen on screen, the power of <acronym title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>, the magic of <acronym title="Hypertext PreProcessing">PHP</acronym>. But this is me, and my situation differs from that of most web developers. So, &#8220;Jobs from Hell&#8221; I can do&nbsp;without.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21161</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21161</guid>
		<description>@Ryan --- It becomes very noticeable when you pop out of styles and suddenly the page structure is impossible to identify. I just can't understand &lt;em&gt;why&lt;/em&gt; people use styled &lt;code&gt;span&lt;/code&gt;s to create headings...

@David --- the scary thing with server-side problems, too, is that frequently you won't learn about them until later on in the job. They aren't always obvious from the front-end!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ryan&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- It becomes very noticeable when you <acronym title="Short for POP3, the Post Office Protocol for email">POP</acronym> out of styles and suddenly the page structure is impossible to identify. I just can&#8217;t understand <em>why</em> people use styled <code>span</code>s to create headings&#8230;</p>
<p>@David&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- the scary thing with server-side problems, too, is that frequently you won&#8217;t learn about them until later on in the job. They aren&#8217;t always obvious from the&nbsp;front-end!</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Benson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21130</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21130</guid>
		<description>@Joe - Yes, I checked a mock up of a design and popped it into no-style mode, and I noticed that the designer just used spans with a large font size to make 'headings'. I currently trying to tell him why this is a bad technique on a few grounds.

@David - that just gives me the chills. I don't want to know what the size of that file is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joe - Yes, I checked a mock up of a design and popped it into no-style mode, and I noticed that the designer just used spans with a large font size to make &#8216;headings&#8217;. I currently trying to tell him why this is a bad technique on a few grounds.</p>
<p>@David - that just gives me the chills. I don&#8217;t want to know what the size of that file&nbsp;is.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Dolson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21063</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Dolson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21063</guid>
		<description>@Ryan --- Yes, the unstyled view can really expose the logic of your content. I use that as one of my steps in checking the underlying accessibility of a site.

@David --- Yikes. What an awful piece of development. I don't think it's fair to say that this is the fault of a site which "uses server-side technologies." More the fault of a site which "uses server-side technologies badly." That's a good example of a legacy package which is simply beyond correction. 

It's certainly true that starting over can sometimes be the &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; way to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ryan&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- Yes, the unstyled view can really expose the logic of your content. I use that as one of my steps in checking the underlying accessibility of a site.</p>
<p>@David&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;- Yikes. What an awful piece of development. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to say that this is the fault of a site which &#8220;uses server-side technologies.&#8221; More the fault of a site which &#8220;uses server-side technologies badly.&#8221; That&#8217;s a good example of a legacy package which is simply beyond correction. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s certainly true that starting over can sometimes be the <em>only</em> way to&nbsp;go.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21052</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21052</guid>
		<description>When the site uses server-side technologies it throws up a lot more problems. A number of times I have been approached by companies who just want a new design, but on examination of their code it is an awful jumbled mess of PHP and HTML. One site I had some through recently had one file with over 25,000 lines of jumbled PHP and HTML. For some reason the developer had found it essential to individualy echo out each tr and td. Needless to say, a complete redevelopment was suggested. Something like that just cannot be fixed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the site uses server-side technologies it throws up a lot more problems. A number of times I have been approached by companies who just want a new design, but on examination of their code it is an awful jumbled mess of <acronym title="Hypertext PreProcessing">PHP</acronym> and <acronym title="HyperText Markup Language">HTML</acronym>. One site I had some through recently had one file with over 25,000 lines of jumbled <acronym title="Hypertext PreProcessing">PHP</acronym> and <acronym title="HyperText Markup Language">HTML</acronym>. For some reason the developer had found it essential to individualy echo out each tr and td. Needless to say, a complete redevelopment was suggested. Something like that just cannot be&nbsp;fixed.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Benson</title>
		<link>http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21042</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 06:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2007/09/working-with-legacy-websites/#comment-21042</guid>
		<description>While reading about the three-tiered system, one thing that popped into my head that I wish so many designers would do before making the new design live, and that would be to view their page style-less. This hits on the logic of the design.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While reading about the three-tiered system, one thing that popped into my head that I wish so many designers would do before making the new design live, and that would be to view their page style-less. This hits on the logic of the&nbsp;design.</p>
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